344 replies to this topic

[fraac]

 

Btw by far the best source of regular medics is keen newbies, they're basically the only people who want to do it and try to do it properly. They may not be existing league players.

Where did you get that from? We get a lot of 0 lobby medics because it's an almost guaranteed empty slot in the top lobby, not because they're super keen to play a support class.

 

I meant for advanced lobbies, and I got it from running thousands of mixes where many of those newbie medics are now high up the league. b33p, you might consider if your style of microreplying is helpful here. 

[b33p]

 

 

Btw by far the best source of regular medics is keen newbies, they're basically the only people who want to do it and try to do it properly. They may not be existing league players.

Where did you get that from? We get a lot of 0 lobby medics because it's an almost guaranteed empty slot in the top lobby, not because they're super keen to play a support class.

 

I meant for advanced lobbies, and I got it from running thousands of mixes where many of those newbie medics are now high up the league. b33p, you might consider if your style of microreplying is helpful here. 

 

 

Apart from doubting your hosting thousands of mixes (an average of one mix per day for three years -- yeah, that didn't happen) if you don't like rebuttals don't post on an open forum. If what you're saying is untrue, impractical or not useful while we're trying to come up with a solution be prepared for criticism.

Edited by b33p, 11 September 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[fraac]

No, it was more like 4 mixes a day for 2 years. You're pretty new to 6v6 so there's no reason you'd know. You aren't rebutting anyone, you're posting noise.

 

The best way to get games started quickly is with a supply of keen new medics who really want to learn the game. You only need a small number at a time because they want to play at every opportunity. It's also best for the growth of the game, and tf2center is about bridging the gap from public to competitive. tf2pickup tell new players to go elsewhere, there are no newbie mixes atm, and normal unadvanced lobbies are horrible for medics, even in Mumble lobbies.

 

So, what you have to do is give them special privileges. First, lessen the entry requirements - no league history required. You'd be looking to find new medics like REM, he's a great recent example, although it usually takes them longer to get a team so they can keep mixing for a couple of months. Let them pick another player on the team, as tf2pickup do. Give them a different colour in the online player list so they feel like bosses. If advanced lobbies are normally scheduled, let them create unscheduled lobbies (but they can only fill the medic slot). Stuff like that.

 

This is definitely the way to go, if you want to avoid the phenomenon of waiting half an hour for a medic who doesn't want to play medic. I could help find the guys, for EU 6v6 at least.

[b33p]

You aren't rebutting anyone, you're posting noise.

 

I'm making a contribution to the discussion as someone who really, really wants some form of advanced lobby to come to fruition. I don't care if you think it's noise, because I think your suggestion (which we're talking about below) is crap.

 

tf2pickup tell new players to go elsewhere, there are no newbie mixes atm, and normal unadvanced lobbies are horrible for medics, even in Mumble lobbies.
 

 

Maybe you could host 2 per day and save European highlander. Look, the highlander medics currently playing learnt okay, I'm getting the impression that part of your reasoning leverages on taking responsibility for ensuring TF2C increases the number of medic mains. I think you're way off base.

 

So, what you have to do is give them special privileges. First, lessen the entry requirements - no league history required. You'd be looking to find new medics like REM, he's a great recent example, although it usually takes them longer to get a team so they can keep mixing for a couple of months. Let them pick another player on the team, as tf2pickup do. Give them a different colour in the online player list so they feel like bosses. If advanced lobbies are normally scheduled, let them create unscheduled lobbies (but they can only fill the medic slot). Stuff like that.

 

I don't think it's appropriate, or particularly relevant, to give an example of one guy who you say is a good medic and point to this player as a represention of all the good medics we'll miss out on if we don't allow absolute newbies to play medics in 'advanced lobbies'. Again, I feel the need to remind you that medic is arguably the most important (or certainly top 3) player in a game, and allowing absolute beginners to play this class can, and most likely will, reduce the quality of 'advanced lobbies' more in line with regular, current, yolo-esque lobbies.

 

In fact, I'd sooner vote that we only allow people with 1500 hours in the game play medic in advanced lobbies, than vote that absolute beginners should be allowed. The only real reason you have put forward to allow beginner medics to play is that, otherwise, we will be force to wait ages on them starting. You have shown no evidence to support this view, however, so it stands alone as an assertion at the moment. I think we only need to take a glance at tf2pickup to see that what you are saying is incorrect.

 

I do, however, agree that if you sign up for a class and not as part of a particular team, medics should get the choice to choose a player to be on a team with to make it more appealing or certainly not much less appealing than playing in a regular lobby which is open to stacking.
 

 

[kKaltUu]

Medics are really important for competitive, no doubt about it. 

The problem is, medic is the last slot to fill in most lobbies (even in pugs, mixes or fat kid).

Part of the tradeoff we have to think about is to create more incentive for players to play medic to increase the flow of lobbies, without lowering the quality of all games. 

 

I'm a firm believer that if we either manually keep track of who is invited to Advanced Lobbies, or having really strict rules that will ensure the highest quality of play and ensures no lower skilled players will stay on the system and ruin it for 11 / 17 other players.

[b33p]

Manually sounds great but potentially a huge workload for your guys. Is it doable?

[kKaltUu]

Manually sounds great but potentially a huge workload for your guys. Is it doable?

 

not sure, but as you can see it takes a really long time to figure out the constraints to program it in. I'd rather have it sooner than later and the devs are already working as hard as they can. 

[b33p]

Am I crazy, or would allowing everybody from HL ETF2L Season 6 Division 3+, 6v6 ETF2L Season 18 Division 4+ and UGC Platinum into these ALs at the start be a half decent way of getting it going? Of course if they don't want to use mumble etc fine, they can play regular lobbies, but it might be a start. Maybe allow NA Platinum and Gold (maybe silver) as UGC is their main league.

 

I don't know, just trying to think ways to minimise the actual hand picking. Sure, there'll be a few roster riders but the number is probably negligible.

[MasterNoob]

Manually sounds great but potentially a huge workload for your guys. Is it doable?

 

Of course it is. The approach will be that we will come up with an initial list based on certain criteria, say league player and/or proper mumble behavior. That list will be subject to change to our crew, to make sure we haven't forgotten anybody or the other way around...

Give them a different colour in the online player list so they feel like bosses.

 

Let's not do that, since that would be absolutely for the wrong reasons.

 

I have this unfounded feeling that playing medic is more of a problem in casual Lobbies, since they get yelled at (whether they play badly or not) and that has led to a certain reputation right now. Medics like myself, MT and R.E.M. are not part of that, since we're decent enough for Advanced Lobbies, so we will continue to join these med slots.

 

MN

 

Btw. I do already feel like a boss, but that might be just me... ^^

[naknak]

I have this unfounded feeling that playing medic is more of a problem in casual Lobbies, since they get yelled at (whether they play badly or not)

Read kKaltUu's post a little further up. It's a problem even at higher levels of play.

Regardless of any person's opinion: there is no escaping the clear fact that medics are 1/9th (or 1/6th) of every game played. If the goal is lobbies with experienced medics in them, one of these things will be true:

1. medics will be about 1/9th of the player pool (my recommendation), OR
2. the average medic will play a lot more lobbies than the average non-medic, OR
3. there will be a lot of waiting for medics.

[MasterNoob]

4. We require every player to play medic every so often; for high levels this is not really a problem, since playing medic is all about game sense rather than specific skills (except maybe for arrowing people ^^). So I'm convinced that the average div2 player plays a decent Lobby medic.

[naknak]

4. We require every player to play medic every so often;

experienced medics

 
 
 

for high levels this is not really a problem, since playing medic is all about game sense rather than specific skills

There's no concise response to this. I'll just leave the statement here and we'll have to see who's right.

[fraac]

You can handpick keen new medics and have lobbies start quickly, or you can wait half an hour for random div4 players to offclass. In my experience it's easy to find these guys if you provide the right environment.

[b33p]

 

Medics like myself, MT and R.E.M. are not part of that, since we're decent enough for Advanced Lobbies, so we will continue to join these med slots.

 

 

Uh oh, MasterNoob gets into Advanced Lobbies? RIP! I agree with your sentiment, people are more likely to play medic if they know the people around them have a clue what to do.

 

 

 

I have this unfounded feeling that playing medic is more of a problem in casual Lobbies, since they get yelled at (whether they play badly or not)

Read kKaltUu's post a little further up. It's a problem even at higher levels of play.

 

 

Hm, not really. It's not a problem on TF2Pickup until it gets very late in the night, and presumably most people don't want to have to depend on anybody when they're tired, they just wanna DM and win.

 

I just want to add that this whole medic thing isn't an issue. It just isn't. It will be the same situation we currently have, but this time everyone has a little bit more confidence in their team mates. If anything, this will make people play medic more often. There's no harm in doing the division thing or finding a way to invite a large group of players, and if getting lobbies to start is more of an issue than with regular lobbies, start hand picking more people.

 

If you're hand chosen because you play a lot of medic, what is your obligation? What if you only play a third of your ALs as medic? This is why I think the whole thing about medics is sticky, but a non-issue. It's a sticky non-issue!

[kKaltUu]

Having the system in the first place will give us insight on whether to lower or tighten the requirements for medics, wouldn't you say?

[Bora]

In my opinion these could actually fill quicker than regular ones. The only reason regular ones don't go is medics but people don't want to play medic (myself included) with a bunch of 70 FOV using pubber who take ages to join a lobby and then haven't a clue why you cannot run pyro to mid. An organised mumble enforced lobby with people who play will attract better medics to actually play here where currently they prefer pickup.

 

On the note of waiting. I tend to play lobbies to kill time but whilst I am waiting I do other things. Not like TF2 is the only thing on the internet. I simply play when the lobby starts but it doens't bother me how long that is at all. Once advanced lobbies exist they are all I will be playing regardless of how slow they fill. They might also encourage people to try to learn how to play properly...

 

lobbies are serious business.

[b33p]

Having the system in the first place will give us insight on whether to lower or tighten the requirements for medics, wouldn't you say?

 

If you're saying 'wait and see' the answer is 'obviously'.

[kKaltUu]

Having the system in the first place will give us insight on whether to lower or tighten the requirements for medics, wouldn't you say?

If you're saying 'wait and see' the answer is 'obviously'.

I'm not saying wait and see, I'm saying: nag until we have the advanced lobby system and fill it from the top.
But most important is the nagging! waiting too long until it's implemented is detrimental to the system, site and community.

We log stuff in the database, we can see if it takes too long to start lobbies or if the lobbies are 5-0 wipes because we have medics that have 0 matches on ETF2L / ESEA. We can adjust to that.

Having the system available to a small group of players should be the main priority of anyone involved.

[Australium]

I really like the idea masternoob, when I started playing on tf2center people were a lot more serious then they are now, people dont really seem to take lobbys that serious anymore. I really like the idea of advanced lobbys besides from 1 minor detail, I dont think there should be a minimum division requirement, some people are actually good but don't play competetive in a team, I dont use a mic 95% of the time so obviously advanced lobbys is not something for me, yet. I also think the idea of inviting your own friends to the group is going to turn into an aidsfest quite quickly, it only takes 1 person that invites all his/her friends and the chain reaction started, I know this will happen because I have a trading group with well over 2000 members and I used this 'strategy' to get members. I was also wondering, when is this going to become a thing? Is it just an idea or is it actually something that's going to be on the actual website in a couple of months?

[georgebaii]

Come to think of it, a concept like this would probably be better off as its own site, or maybe something you could get as a perk for an upgrade (i.e. TF2Center Pro) or something along the lines of that.