344 replies to this topic

[Luop90]

Maybe on the top of the hour, auto-create an advanced lobby using the one of the stock servers, if one isn't already in session? This would make sure there is always an advanced lobby available for play.

[MasterNoob]

I don't see any problem with advanced Lobbies not filling. Say we have 10% of our user base in AL, that means they will start 10 times less Lobbies. The thing that I'm actually expecting is what I call "the snow ball effect". When people play good games, good balance, nice atmosphere in Mumble, they tend to stick around in Mumble and ask what Lobby is going to be next. You see this sometimes when Lobbies are not filling at all, and suddenly this group comes in, and fills the rest of the slots. I expect this behavior where Lobbies will fill in waves as previous ones end. Maybe an indicator of current Lobbies can help them predict these waves, but let's try not to over complicate things first...

[Timon]

In my opinion these could actually fill quicker than regular ones. The only reason regular ones don't go is medics but people don't want to play medic (myself included) with a bunch of 70 FOV using pubber who take ages to join a lobby and then haven't a clue why you cannot run pyro to mid. An organised mumble enforced lobby with people who play will attract better medics to actually play here where currently they prefer pickup.

 

On the note of waiting. I tend to play lobbies to kill time but whilst I am waiting I do other things. Not like TF2 is the only thing on the internet. I simply play when the lobby starts but it doens't bother me how long that is at all. Once advanced lobbies exist they are all I will be playing regardless of how slow they fill. They might also encourage people to try to learn how to play properly...

[ninjaMooCow]

 a bunch of 70 FOV using pubber who take ages to join a lobby and then haven't a clue why you cannot run pyro to mid.

 

Help me.  Why not?

[flip]

 

 a bunch of 70 FOV using pubber who take ages to join a lobby and then haven't a clue why you cannot run pyro to mid.

 

Help me.  Why not?

 

why not run pyro to mid in 6s? I hope you're joking.

[DudeMartin]

This is such a great idea! I, too, have noticed that the quality of lobbies has significantly dropped over the past few months.

[Jimmi]

Love the idea! 

I think HLO made center dip and that´s understandable since they are new.

[Neidii]

I absolutely cant wait for this, oh what a dream! Center really needed this for those that take lobbies more seriously and get away from those "oh it's just a lobby" type of players. To be able to join a lobby and have everyone participate in mumble and do their best and actually know what they are doing sounds perfect, just like tf2pickup but with more players on the site! Love it!

[naknak]

I don't see any problem with advanced Lobbies not filling. Say we have 10% of our user base in AL, that means they will start 10 times less Lobbies. The thing that I'm actually expecting is what I call "the snow ball effect". When people play good games, good balance, nice atmosphere in Mumble, they tend to stick around in Mumble and ask what Lobby is going to be next. You see this sometimes when Lobbies are not filling at all, and suddenly this group comes in, and fills the rest of the slots. I expect this behavior where Lobbies will fill in waves as previous ones end. Maybe an indicator of current Lobbies can help them predict these waves, but let's try not to over complicate things first...

 

Advanced Lobbies sound like a set of restrictions, not much different from the restrictions available now, plus some consequences for bad behaviour.  The problems with restriction lobbies are well known and I don't see any of them addressed here.  In particular, the afk readyup death spiral and the (self-fulfilling) perception that the restrictions are impossible to meet.  These problems will exist with Advanced Lobbies.

 

I'm interested to try this out.  But I'm not optimistic and I'm disappointed that the consequences most people are clamouring for will only apply to these exclusive lobbies.  

 

Does anyone think it's good for the lobby ecosystem that heavies and medics routinely noshow?  Or that some people will leave a losing game early to join another one?  There's already a place for people that insist on easy rolls and the flexibility to come and go as they please: it's called a pub server, and nearly 100% of them are unplayable thanks to the self-centred culture they engender.

[kKaltUu]

The strength in it lies in the strict rules and quick restriction of those players to the system.

I'm a firm believer that if we start with a small group, the community quality control will pave a mindset for those players that want to join. 

 

Compare it to IRC pug, spreadsheets or multiplay pickup2. At these systems we weeded those out that weren't willing to play along, and the overall quality raised significant in comparison to the "open" alternatives. Eventually the prestige of the system attracted a lot of new applicants, who know they are under big scrutiny in their early games. Fuck up, and you're out. 

 

I'm not saying we've got the perfect solution, but we have proof the way we're heading works. The added benefit is that we have a lot of stuff we can query, and have some smart people on the staff that can do amazing things with the data.

[naknak]

IRC pug, spreadsheets or multiplay pickup2. 

 

Did any of those average even 10 games/day?  Not a rhetorical question -- I don't know the answer.  The question is whether the benefits will be significant and obvious enough for advanced lobbies to compete with real lobbies for players.  

 

I used a restaurant analogy before: a dirty restaurant that keeps their refrigerators too warm can be more profitable than a clean one that stores food safely.  No one wants to eat dirty, unsafe food but the market is not good at punishing the bad actors.  So we have a health department, who declares that all restaurants must be clean, and fines or closes the ones that aren't.

 

This approach is like an opt-in health department.  It leaves the dirty joints alone and offers a badge to the ones who can pass a health inspection.  Is that enough?   My finely honed instincts tell me it is not. 

 

Still, I'll try this out.  I want it to work.  

[MasterNoob]

There is a difference between what we want Lobbies to be and what has become of it. It has become a thing on it's one, so it is so much easier for us to introduce a new brand, Advanced Lobbies, and leave the status quo. Unhappy players like you, like me, like all of us probably, will make the transition and those left behind, well... for me, I wonder what the exact difference is between a pub and a Casual Lobby.

[MasterNoob]

Just a quick thought: add "!faill" to report a Lobby as failed, due to a 5-0 roll, or whatever. Let's say we need a majority of votes, so that includes at least one vote of the winning team (in case of a roll)

[MikeNGo]

Just a quick thought: add "!faill" to report a Lobby as failed, due to a 5-0 roll, or whatever. Let's say we need a majority of votes, so that includes at least one vote of the winning team (in case of a roll)

 

And make !fail to require the majority of a team; off of who is currently in the server, so rage quitters don't slow down the closeout.

[ninjaMooCow]

 

 

 a bunch of 70 FOV using pubber who take ages to join a lobby and then haven't a clue why you cannot run pyro to mid.

 

Help me.  Why not?

 

why not run pyro to mid in 6s? I hope you're joking.

 

 

What if that pyro was one of the OP awesome pyros.

[Aphex]

This whole thing feels very elitist in my opinion.

 

So, we have a group of people that feels that the lobbies they used to have enjoy have degraded in quality. Hell, I'm not disagreeing with them, it's the whole reason I started playing 4v4 was because I could make a better quality lobby, but with this, you're just forcing all the players who aren't part of the super secret fan club to be stuck in a lobby that is now considered to be "casual" and not necessarily to be taken with even a drop of seriousness now that you have AL's. And what happens to players who have just joined TF2Center and don't know about this system? They're gonna think that all lobbies are like this, and just find something else to do with their time, because I doubt if someone has a terrible first experience with these new lobbies, they aren't going to immediately check the forums for a solution to this problem, they're just going to leave.

 

Now, the group itself sounds well thought out, it's fair, and people are more accountable for their actions. But what we're going to see is exactly what happened to the music industry after any shithead with a laptop could start producing music and putting it online for people to listen to; if you want to find a good song (lobby), you'll have to wade through a pile of shit to find it, and I think few people have that kind of patience anymore.

 

Anyways, that's my thought on the matter, rant over.

Edited by Aphex, 05 September 2014 - 10:48 PM.

[TheMattgician]

I think the way to solve Aphex's problem is by setting a fairly restrictive schedule for advanced lobbies. This way, people still have to play 'casual lobbies'. There are some issues with this, such as casual lobbies being treated as shit, and some people never being able to play a lobby.

[fraac]

Aphex, I find great new stuff on last.fm.

 

If the Advanced group is all the league players that's over half the people who play EU 6v6 lobbies. So apart from waiting longer to find medics I'm not sure if a change will be noticeable, initially. Btw by far the best source of regular medics is keen newbies, they're basically the only people who want to do it and try to do it properly. They may not be existing league players.

[Foxy]

This whole thing feels very elitist in my opinion.

 

So, we have a group of people that feels that the lobbies they used to have enjoy have degraded in quality. Hell, I'm not disagreeing with them, it's the whole reason I started playing 4v4 was because I could make a better quality lobby, but with this, you're just forcing all the players who aren't part of the super secret fan club to be stuck in a lobby that is now considered to be "casual" and not necessarily to be taken with even a drop of seriousness now that you have AL's. And what happens to players who have just joined TF2Center and don't know about this system? They're gonna think that all lobbies are like this, and just find something else to do with their time, because I doubt if someone has a terrible first experience with these new lobbies, they aren't going to immediately check the forums for a solution to this problem, they're just going to leave.

 

Now, the group itself sounds well thought out, it's fair, and people are more accountable for their actions. But what we're going to see is exactly what happened to the music industry after any shithead with a laptop could start producing music and putting it online for people to listen to; if you want to find a good song (lobby), you'll have to wade through a pile of shit to find it, and I think few people have that kind of patience anymore.

 

Anyways, that's my thought on the matter, rant over.

 

I totally agree with your concerns about casual lobbies just being a joke, but what we're trying to do here is slice off the top 80% who want to play nicely, and remove the tail of trolls / ragequitters / etc. One of the things that we want to make sure doesn't happen is that new players are discouraged or have a negative experience, but sadly that's what the case is today.

 

We could bring in restrictions, punishments for leaving early, etc to all lobbies today, but that would be such a significant change and affect so many people that there is a risk of forcing people away. By bringing in "advanced" lobbies, we will take a core of dedicated players and be able to enforce punishments from the start. If this doesn't work, then we chalk it up to a failed experiment and go again with another plan. If it does work, then we can start moving things like auto-banning for ragequitting into standard lobbies. 

 

My personal hope is that by having the dedicated players move to the new format, the "casual" lobbies start to decrease because you just have the non-serious players there, and once that happens we have a clear separation of non-serious players which we can trim off. New players can have a grace period with advanced lobbies, where they are introduced to the game in a more serious environment (although we have to be careful here to not widen the gap for completely new players). The aim of this is not elitism, or separation of the good and bad players - it's to separate those that want to play with those that don't. I won't mention names, but we're at the point where lobby quality suffers because a small number of people regularly leave / don't join mumble / generally lower the quality of the game. We're getting to the point where we need to ask ourselves, do we want that kind of player on TF2Center? Why should one player be able to negatively impact the gaming experience of 11 / 17 other players? Often, it's not even the rage-quitter that suffers - they jump into another lobby - it's everyone else they left behind.

[Alphasupreme]

I am new to TF2C and its not that bad. Its great to be able to work as a team to play the game. But one thing that has made my time here less entertaining is the fact that try hards expect everyone to be great and if you are new or make too many mistakes in one game they tell you to "Delete team fortress 2 from your computer!" or "never lobby again!"

 

The advanced lobby idea seems right up the ally for players like me. But it only solves half the problem. The possible problem with casual lobbies is that they might just turn into pubs where everybody does their own thing. This will leave new but enthusiastic players with no where to go as they are not skilled enough for the advanced servers and if they go to the casual servers they will be labeled try-hards and ignored.

 

To sum things up. Is there anyway to have lobbies that are accepting of error but still have a competitive atmosphere?