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Advanced Lobbies



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#221 elliott

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 11:43 AM

 

Let plays who have played any matches in div 2 and above in and randomly shuffle teams.

 

O-ho-ho-ho-ho, why do you need TF2C then? No offence, you already can play exclusive private "div2" parties with approximately 200 members in total by using mixes spreadsheet or whatever else you are using to organise PUGs. This had been already said before, TF2C's playerbase is over 100k players. Potential candidates for ALs among them around 5-10% (this includes EU + NA). Guess, how much of them is div2 and higher?

 

ALs are experiment. Firstly we want to see how popular they will become. If there will be enough requests for ALs per day, we could keep develop ALs conception further by adding div restrictions.

 

idk if you dont understand why people >div2 or like mid open play lobbies, but if you want I can spell it out.

 

people play lobbies to dick on shitties.

 

like there's really no reason for me to play lobbies other than to farm stranges and make people feel bad about how they aren't as good as me :)

 

Trying to make ALs happen is pointless tbh, they're going to be dead on arrival, and trying to push them just shows you don't know who you're marketing to. Top 6s players all know each other an inhouse, top HL players dont pug HL (publicly), and there's no top 4s or ultiduo players. The users of ALs are going to be the people who were already playing lobbies, but idk how ur going to convince people who've been winning and stomping normal lobbies to switch to ones that are suddenly harder? you're wasting dev resources that could be used on not making ur website not run like shit or getting rid of this stupid banner at the top of the page. Right now the site is worse than TF2lobby, priority #1 should ALWAYS be making sure no one misses tf2lobby



#222 kKaltUu

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 12:19 PM

You have a few facts twisted for some reason. There are enough div 2 or higher players that use center, pickup or pug to get a somewhat more serious experience playing. This is our response to that request to make sure there is a way for players to climb up in a ranking system that takes league experience and your historical data and creates two potential equally skilled teams. 

 

I don't think you should be worried about commitment from the players themselves, with incentives to do well and moderation on players that try to ruin the system should give the rest of the players an enjoyable experience. We get it if this system isn't anything for you, and Center shouldn't force anyone to play if they don't want to. A silver player like you obviously knows their way around the highest level of competitive TF2, and playing lobbies or pickups to improve is wasted time (if your leader is able to get multiple scrims at the specific times you feel like playing a game). 

 

For the ones that aren't that fortunate to have your team leader or your extensive silver level skill set, we provide this to give those players a tangible experience where their performance can be measured in a relative short time (compared to seasonal play in leagues).

 

I hope you can see how this, in a nutshell, is a lobby system that requires the players to be well versed in their specific slot they're going to play. 



#223 elliott

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 07:50 PM

I dont play HL because its a boring game mode filled with people like you, but I am in open I guess, which you can verify at: http://play.esea.net/users/575896. Its kind of funny that a heavy main is trying to shittalk someone tho lol, i mean i could be a fucking plat heavy too it isn't hard to track europeans lmao

 

"There are enough div 2 or higher players that use center, pickup or pug to get a somewhat more serious experience playing."

 

no one is playing lobbies seriously. Like I really don't hope you think people on tftv and etf2l are just waiting for advanced lobbies to hop out of the woodwork and try to make tf2center the place to pug. If you wanna appeal to them more, you're free to try, but the risk of subopen or div 3 players appearing in them means that they'll more than likely stick to tf2pickup or pug.me where they can guarantee a good game with people they know. Unless you're going for a pick system, which you aren't, no one is going to really care, because there's already better services offering the exact same thing. If you want to actually excel with your site, step one would be to be more responsive to criticism, step two would be improve website performance. Game balance and shit is a last priority thing rn, you should really prioritize getting "normal" lobbies more popular. Rn the average wait time even for 6s lobbies is >5 minutes, and that kind of sucks, and HL lobbies can easily verge on 45 mins past peak hours, with 15 not being uncommon even during the post-work-pre-scrim period when everyone is pugging or fucking around.

 

You can read more here: http://teamfortress....status-giveaway

 

I see that you responded to that, but I think you really need to consider the apprehension and disdain your service received even from mid open players. Most of the positive response you got seemed, to me, to stem from the "idea" of lobbies more so than any will of high tier players to actually play in them.

 

Please dont misinterpret this as me trying to be rude or shit on your ideas, I just think this is a bad road for you to tread until the rest of your site's development is finished

 

and please dont shittalk people thanks I really want to get into IM next season but if mean platinum heavy main bullies are rude i'll never make it oh mercy me



#224 Foxy

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 10:33 PM

I do like how you speak for the collective, yet your opinions do not seemingly represent those of the masses. Our survey that you reference had over 3000 responses. The overwhelming response was that people do play seriously most of the time, with ~3% not taking it seriously. We're implementing things that the existing playerbase have asked for repeatedly in an effort to have more balanced and enjoyable games. If other higher players come then great! If they don't, it's not the end of the world and the 500+ players we have on most evenings will have to do.

 
Frankly, if you're in the 3% who don't care about playing seriously you are welcome (and encouraged) to not play here. You are not the target audience for any of our services.

 

Edit: updated %ages



#225 Mother Tereza

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 10:47 PM

I'll simply add this to Foxy's reply - Attached File  survey_results_01.png   51.91KB   3 downloads

 



#226 elliott

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:01 AM

I do like how you speak for the collective, yet your opinions do not seemingly represent those of the masses. Our survey that you reference had over 3000 responses. The overwhelming response was that people do play seriously most of the time, with ~3% not taking it seriously. We're implementing things that the existing playerbase have asked for repeatedly in an effort to have more balanced and enjoyable games. If other higher players come then great! If they don't, it's not the end of the world and the 500+ players we have on most evenings will have to do.

 
Frankly, if you're in the 3% who don't care about playing seriously you are welcome (and encouraged) to not play here. You are not the target audience for any of our services.

 

Edit: updated %ages

you really are misunderstanding and idk how

 

like if you look at my stats from lobbies im clearly w/in the target audience of any percentile based system. Im clearly div 2 material or whatever if that's what u wanna call it, and as someone in your target audience I don't see any reason to use your service for a serious game. I don't troll lobbies or whatever, I clearly try, but I dont play them seriously. Lobbies are a joke because I can go 50-12 without joining the mumble.

 

"If they don't, it's not the end of the world and the 500+ players we have on most evenings will have to do."

 

like

 

splitting your community when its so small is so horribly retarded that I dont really understand if you can really properly grasp what im trying to say if you dont get it? The top ~50 or so players everyday aren't looking for close games or even fights, if they were there's already dozens of pug services that offer that. Good players are here to stomp. Trying to corral them together is absolutely pointless because no one who is interested in playing serious competitive games has any reason to join a new pug group full of people they dont know, and no one who's interested in stomping lobbies wants to have to actually be challenged. The silver lining of this sort of system is maybe some silver/gold 6s players get put in the equivalent of a pugme, and they get absolutely raped and have 0 fun but maybe they learn something? Like I dont see why the middling players are going to want to do this either.

 

So like, I dont see why you're trying to waste developer time on something that already exists (lobby/pug system for mid+ players) when you could just focus on improving your site. The site makes browsers lag, can still be kinda buggy with popups, still lacks some fairly important user info (ESEA profiles being a big one tbh), and lacks customizability. All of these fixes/changes would be better as they improve what you already have (a VERY low level pug service) and prevent you from trying to tackle pugme or pickup head on, which is a fight I doubt you'd win. The developers of those sites seem to be a little more on the ball and fast paced with their development, and seem to be more geared to what the community wants.

 

i think you're just going to misinterpret this again and send me another chart but I honestly like lobbies and Id rather you not make your site worse/ruin what's fun about it.



#227 Kengur

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 06:47 AM

 

 I'm sorry it bothers you that you aren't in a position to asses it's efficacy but that's not really relevant here.

 

actually everybody is in the postion, since a ranking with a secret formular is always a useless ranking.

 

my point exactly, m8



#228 fraac

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 10:40 PM

To be useful all it has to do is work better than no team balancing, as we currently have. I'm confident that it would.



#229 elliott

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:22 PM

To be useful all it has to do is work better than no team balancing, as we currently have. I'm confident that it would.

no?

 

making a limitted subset of game's balanced isn't useful at all, and obfuscating how it works just belys that the system is flawed and can be gamed, which will happen eventually even if people don't know how the formula works. If you can't come up with a large scale system that applies to all lobbies at least passively (as far as tracking goes), then either your system or TF2 is too flawed to really be "fair".

 

Trying to skill balance the ~50 at most active people who are eligible for advanced lobbies is also pointless. Get your pug system popular first then try to team balance it, or come up with a system that allows for team balancing accross all skill level. Although even 500 active players really isn't even enough when you start to break it down. Logistically you don't really have enough to try and skill balance lobbies effectively in any way other than Team A Rank = Team B Rank which is horrible for so many reasons



#230 Migthy Burger

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:41 AM

I dont play HL because its a boring game mode filled with people like you, but I am in open I guess, which you can verify at: http://play.esea.net/users/575896. Its kind of funny that a heavy main is trying to shittalk someone tho lol, i mean i could be a fucking plat heavy too it isn't hard to track europeans lmao.

 

+some more blabbering.

 

795.gif

 

Hooowee! Please cut the nuclear-grade bullshit, sugar. This topic is delicate enough without the smell of what you're dishing out.

 

You're just some random teen dime-a-dozen ESEA Open player with a biiiiiiig mouth and still much to learn. There's a massive difference between not taking lobbies seriously and fooling around. In the former, you play in a relaxed way because there is nothing at stake and most of your mistakes won't get punished, yet you still respect the format and play the objective to win, even if you do it in a crazy/gimmicky way. In the latter, you're simply being a bad sport and a borderline troll, wasting everyone's time by doing something that you could simply do in a bad pub.

 

And yes, I'm a filthy but proud, 100% pure plat HL player and Engineer main who has watched and played the format almost since its infancy. But I still hopefully have some measure of common sense and humility. Hopefully :P

 

Now go back to your salt cave and meditate on these words: "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now to stay on topic, it may be pretty hard to truly grasp the impact that such a feature would have (hence the usefulness of testing). BUT my intuition, if I truly want to look at this in a non short-sighted, non narrow-minded way, also is that AL will be much more rather than the private club for the... "better" comp players that a number of people here seem to desire or dread. The devs clearly perceive it, and Fraac has definitely struck the very heart of the topic when he talked about his mixes:

 

 

Btw by far the best source of regular medics is keen newbies, they're basically the only people who want to do it and try to do it properly. They may not be existing league players.

 

Each time comp tf2 has received some exposure, from the HL community challenge, the KK Lo-Fi Offclass cup, IDK newbie mixes back in my days to the more recent HLO, #playcomp, Archimedes cup and Muselk video, you have had an influx of novices rushing to discover the format(s). While many may leave once the hype goes down, every wave will leave a new layer of motivated recruits who want and will progress through the ranks. I have known some players who are now playing at a high level (or have been at some point) since the days when they were still more or less new. Sure some of them were talented to begin with. But they they also wanted to improve, they had ambition and gave themselves the means to achieve their goals.

 

This is the audience I see that you are trying to capture. I have already witnessed some novice lobby players trying to host their own lobbies as a pre-made team. Of course, good intentions won't sustain a fire, but they sure as hell can help spark it.

Because to my knowledge there aren't any real low-mid hl mix groups in Europe for those players who want to improve but have no team yet, or do not play in a team as main (no, the Colony spreadsheet doesn't really count here).

 

If implemented right (which I admit will be the tricky part) I don't think it will divide anything. It will simply formalise what some players were already doing anyway by using the requirements options ("Mahmoud" lobbies, "Warpy" lobbies, "Huntsman" lobbies, "Lagwka" lobbies, etc) and make things a little easier to sort out.


Edited by Migthy Burger, 27 May 2015 - 08:45 AM.


#231 Kengur

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:06 PM

May be we should call this "Mahmoud lobbies" instead of "Advanced Lobbies"  :D



#232 elliott

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 09:40 PM

ppl with humiltity tend to not dismiss arguments by calling people bad

 

anyway, low/mid players looking to improve aren't the focus apparently. Div 2 + wouldn't really be the kind of people looking to benefit from this.



#233 MasterNoob

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 09:48 AM

ppl with humiltity tend to not dismiss arguments by calling people bad

 

anyway, low/mid players looking to improve aren't the focus apparently. Div 2 + wouldn't really be the kind of people looking to benefit from this.

 

I have listened to your unfounded bullshit for a while and I'm quite tired of it now. It seems you're a bit lost here, mr. Div2 player; so go back to your to your cave with spreadsheets and IRC stuff, and let the other 100k players that have played TF2C and actually enjoyed their experience remain in peace.

 

Back on topic: I can tell you all that most dev work have been done so far, and we will let you guys know more very soon ;-)


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#234 georgebaii

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 10:31 AM

May be we should call this "Mahmoud lobbies" instead of "Advanced Lobbies"  :D

"Stoopid Limitations" = Said by at least one random player every Mahmoud lobby :3



#235 elliott

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 08:58 PM

 

ppl with humiltity tend to not dismiss arguments by calling people bad

 

anyway, low/mid players looking to improve aren't the focus apparently. Div 2 + wouldn't really be the kind of people looking to benefit from this.

 

I have listened to your unfounded bullshit for a while and I'm quite tired of it now. It seems you're a bit lost here, mr. Div2 player; so go back to your to your cave with spreadsheets and IRC stuff, and let the other 100k players that have played TF2C and actually enjoyed their experience remain in peace.

 

Back on topic: I can tell you all that most dev work have been done so far, and we will let you guys know more very soon ;-)

 

i mean

 

if everything im saying is so unfounded, it'd be pretty easy to say why im wrong, no?

 

straight up, you can't support a system of advanced lobbies if you only have 500 players active at peak time. That ends up being 50 players spread accross 3 continents if you're going by a 10% spread. When you divide them up based on continent, 6s/HL, and skill, you won't even have enough people to actually fill a lobby without playing internationally, which isn't what players are going to want to do if they're intent on being serious. If you're doing more, or trying to convert all 500 players to a skill based system, you're still running into a logistical problem of at best 300 EU players being divided between 6s and HL, then trying to be skill sorted. With 18 slots, you're looking at a possible ~15 HL games or 25 6s games assuming that every single one of those is looking to play without any intent on playing a specific class. But obviously that's not the case, and the few medics/heavies/engis will be spread thin, and more inclined to play in the high level lobbies simply because no one will be there to fill the slots. At this point, you're limitting to a relatively low number of lobbies being played, certainly less than there are now, simply because no one is going to be interested in playing the low level lobbies except in transit to the higher ones. That's a model that's only sustainable if you have a constant amount of new players progressing through lobbies, but I'm willing to bet that most players don't play more than 5 lobbies, and those that do tend to play much more than 100.

 

like idk im just really curious how you're going to keep ALs populated without killing your site.



#236 MasterNoob

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 01:20 PM

 

 

ppl with humiltity tend to not dismiss arguments by calling people bad

 

anyway, low/mid players looking to improve aren't the focus apparently. Div 2 + wouldn't really be the kind of people looking to benefit from this.

 

I have listened to your unfounded bullshit for a while and I'm quite tired of it now. It seems you're a bit lost here, mr. Div2 player; so go back to your to your cave with spreadsheets and IRC stuff, and let the other 100k players that have played TF2C and actually enjoyed their experience remain in peace.

 

Back on topic: I can tell you all that most dev work have been done so far, and we will let you guys know more very soon ;-)

 

 

 

like idk im just really curious how you're going to keep ALs populated without killing your site.

 

 

I guess you have to wait a bit longer then ;-)



#237 elliott

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 06:16 PM

what's the point of having a public forum if your response to any question is to call someone bad or ignore them? Why can't you just say that you have plans to increase the number of users on your site or something?



#238 fraac

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 12:20 AM

I agree with elliot that there probably isn't a market for advanced lobbies, unless you can somehow make them better than pickups. But I think the plan is to monetize them and get rich.



#239 xenith

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 05:14 AM

The only thing I agree with this elliott kid is that there kinda is no reason to really join Advanced Lobbies. If there is no ranking system/point system, or any incentive to play them, there is no point at all to it. 



#240 Luop90

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 02:13 PM

The only thing I agree with this elliott kid is that there kinda is no reason to really join Advanced Lobbies. If there is no ranking system/point system, or any incentive to play them, there is no point at all to it. 

 

The entire incentive to play them is to have a better lobby experience. ALs are meant to be the king of lobbies, meaning there should never be a "Flobby" in ALs, so if you join one, you know you will have a fun experience playing the game.

 

I agree with elliot that there probably isn't a market for advanced lobbies, unless you can somehow make them better than pickups. But I think the plan is to monetize them and get rich.

 

How is there not a market? There's over 1,000 concurrent online players during peak time, and out of those 1,000 players, there will be several hundred who qualify / can play ALs. Also, how exactly can someone get rich off of 10 euros per year? The point of ALs is not so that the devs get a paycheck every month, it's to support the site so that we can host more tournaments with prizes, and purchase hardware (such as servers) to house these tournaments, etc.


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