4 replies to this topic

[TheCapeKid]

TF2Stadium has recently launched their fully-open Beta, where any player (most likely with some specific requirements) can play lobbies in a similar fashion to TF2Center. It's no secret that TF2Stadium is now TF2Center's main competitor, with sites like TF2Pickup seem to have not been able to step up to the plate. With promotions such as the "Master of Classes" event, and leadership from community figures like KevinIsPwn, I was just wondering TF2Center's future plans the compete. It appears that TF2Center has already not been taking lightly to advertisement of its competitor, with subsequent TF2Center for individuals that have advertised the competing site, which is completely understandable, to an extent. This year TF2Center saw a new wave of moderation staff, which is important to note, as the bulk of TF2Center users' interactions with TF2Center staff is on the forums for ban/unban requests. The general consensus from what I have seen through interactions with the moderation team of the ban/unban subforums recently can be summarized as, "If you don't like TF2Center/don't want to follow our rules, please go elsewhere." Once again, I find this response to be generally understandable, as individuals whom do not comply with the TF2Center site rules (especially repeat offenders) should be punished, in order to keep the TF2Center community functioning to its best potential efficiency. My main concern is that TF2Center's only real competition in the past has been higher-level HL and 6s PUGs, as lower-level HL and 6s PUG groups are scarce and infrequent. Now that TF2Stadium is around, TF2Center has direct competition; this competition will only grow larger as TF2Stadium grows out of its Beta phase. If TF2Center continues to function as they have been, players will have more incentive to go to TF2Stadium. I do not have accurate statistics that represent how much of TF2Center's traffic is newcomers, rather than longstanding veterans, but both will have incentives to choose TF2Stadium over TF2Center - for example, I personally have been frequenting TF2Center for almost 2 years and have accumulated almost 2,000 lobbies, yet I have no real incentive to stay with TF2Center if I come to find TF2Stadium to be a better alternative; this is the collective attitude I see among almost all of my friends who have been playing on TF2Center frequently/for long amounts of time. TF2Center is a great website - I have spent a lot of time using it and it's contributed to my initial and continued involvement in the competitive TF2 community (for that I owe it a great deal), yet I just have some concerns for the future of the site. I know my individual experiences might not matter to most of the TF2Center staff, but if TF2Stadium does prove to be better and TF2Center has no plan of action to address this competition, you can consider this letter a formal withdrawal of a formerly dedicated TF2Center user, that gave their time and commitment to TF2Center and its community. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Edited by TheCapeKid, 21 March 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[ninjaMooCow]

First of all, let me compliment you on a very well put-together and respectful approach of a discussion.

 

let me assure you that this response is that of the team, and that we agreed upon it before posting.

 

TF2Stadium beta launched, for sure.  There are some nice things going on there, and the developers have obviously put some hard work into what is showing in the beta.  We have nothing but respect for the work that they have done and welcome their competition.

 

This brings me to a main point.  Your post asks a question a little backwards, as it is currently the role of TF2Stadium to compete with the vastly larger TF2Center.  Larger in both functionality, and certainly in the number of players.  That is yet to play out.

 

Many troublemakers are having fun trying to grief our site and troll our moderators with a motive (which I can only guess) to make Stadium more popular and to possibly 'get the word out.'  This is most certainly not condoned by the Stadium staff, and it really puts them in a worse light not a better one.  We will continue to protect our investment and resources from being taken over by yardbirds trying to cause a disruption.  These rules have always been here, and we will punish players who break them in a consistent, unblinking manner.

 

Your comment contains a bunch of "if".  I am not trying to pick it apart.  "If TF2Stadium does prove to be better", "if I come to find TF2Stadium to be a better alternate", etc.  I agree that it is time for TF2Stadium to show what it has and of course the players will decide.

 

We take exception to three of your statements:

1. the bulk of TF2Center users' interactions with TF2Center staff is on the forums for ban/unban requests.

2. If TF2Center continues to function as they have been, players will have more incentive to go to TF2Stadium.

3. "If you don't like TF2Center/don't want to follow our rules, please go elsewhere."

 

1. The bulk of interactions of our over 100,000 playerbase is to log in, play or host games, and leave.  You may find it interesting that only around 1% of the "ban requests" come as prompted by an admin.  I can say confidently that almost all of them come from players.  And yes, there are some frequent fliers that have been banned.  Mostly at the request of the community of players.

 

Your number 2 statement is pure conjecture.  It needs to play out to find out.  ninjaMooCow speaking here, my gut feeling is that there are certainly a core group of players that will leave for almost any reason (not to mention because many of them were banned, again mostly at community request.)  My personal conjecture is that the vast majority of our community will stay because this is where they play games, have fun, and hang out with friends.  Again, we just need to let this play out.

 

3. You may be surprised to find out how many professional web sites and software have essentially that precise EULA.   It is very common that if you do not follow the rules of any software that you will see your privileges of using it revoked.  I remind you that even Valve has VAC bans and a lengthy EULA.  "Don't follow the rules, don't participate in the service" is extremely common. For example: "Valve may cancel your Account or any particular Subscription(s) at any time in the event that (a) Valve ceases providing such Subscriptions to similarly situated Subscribers generally, or (you breach any terms of this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use)"

 

In closing, you may find it very surprising how cordial and welcoming our staff is to the staff, site, and friendly competition of TF2Stadium.  It will only make us both better.  The drama appears to have affected a small group of disenfranchised users who are trying to make it into a war.  We welcome friendly competition and hope that our mission to grow players from pub level to comp is also served by TF2Stadium.

 

We appreciate your past involvement in the site, your excellent way of discussing this in a civil manner, and we hope that once you get a chance to compare both services that you come around here at least some of your time.

 

- staff

[TheCapeKid]

Firstly, thank you for your timely response to my concerns - I greatly respect your thoroughness of response, as well as the division of response from both collectively-approved staff rebuttals and personal remarks from MooCow.

 

Spamming/trolling/griefing, regardless of whether or not the content pertains to TF2Stadium advertisement should not be tolerated, and as you stated it is neither condoned by TF2Center nor TF2Stadium staff. I have concern that TF2Center might have, at one point, implemented rules or systems that treated the advertisement of competitors in comparatively stricter ways. (This specific incident could've been a system bug, though.)

 

You make a good point about how the bulk of the aforementioned player interactions on TF2Center consist of interactions on the main site, with a vast majority of player bans being prompted by by player input; this is something I had failed to take into account prior to posting. As long as moderation and administrative interactions between players on the site continues to be a productive relationship, then I only see good things coming in the future.

 

My original post did contain a decent amount of conjecture; I suppose this was mainly due to my previous personal desire to quickly write a somewhat reactionary response to the matter at hand. I appreciate MooCow's respectful personal response to the subjectivity of my arguments.

 

Your statement regarding EULAs is definitely a good point as well. The disclaimer of "don't follow the rules, don't participate in the service" is both a concise effective means to establish the circumstances to which site rules must be adhered. When I had mentioned that in my original post, I had given specific consideration to interactions between the aforementioned "small group of disenfranchised users". I know that this is a controversial topic in this context, and could be an entirely different discussion altogether. While my intention is to acknowledge the treatment of said users, I don't want to derail this current conversation; I only bring this up to explain my intention with relation to my initial statement of moderation/subforum interaction.

 

I respect your well thought-out response, and I do not want to come off as someone who feels entitled to TF2Center's services (or TF2Stadium's services, for that matter); I am simply a concerned user that would like to acknowledge their concerns in a productive and peaceful manner. This response alone has restored my personal faith in TF2Center and its team and I will be happy to play lobbies, regardless of TF2Stadium's plans and actions, in the future.

[ninjaMooCow]

Entirely my own personal statement here.

 

These concerns have been on my mind a lot.  A new player in this arena is a game changer.  The pot has certainly been stirred up.  These are exciting times.

 

Our response, which I take a lot of credit for, seemed a little stiff and rote.  Keep in mind that the day it was written, every single thing our staff said or did seemed to be posted immediately to social media, tf2stadium chat, or maybe both.  I hope it didn't come across as "shutting you down" discussion point by discussion point.  As this is not a debate and we are all winners.

 

I just wanted to say personally I appreciate your post.  I mentioned it in a couple places, and people were all "Kid is friggin awesome."

 

gl/hf

[TheCapeKid]

MooCow you're too kind