344 replies to this topic

[MasterNoob]

Ah yes, I remember that time when all the lobbies were cp_steel.

 

Anyway, we can just make it so that putting up a troll map on advanced lobbies is a bannable offense.

 

I like prevention rather than banning afterwards, so let's limit maps to a fixed dropdown, whereas admins/mods can use the current open text field.

[R.E.M.]

You can pool all known comp maps into an alternative drop-down list and avoid the problem with troll lobbies but it would require to be manually updated when a new map comes around.

[Some_Thing]

Considering proper "competitive" maps don't come around all that often it wouldn't be too bad. I'm only talking about try and true maps that are added to leagues (example: process when it first came out), not ones that are under test etc.

[R.E.M.]

Considering proper "competitive" maps don't come around all that often it wouldn't be too bad. I'm only talking about try and true maps that are added to leagues (example: process when it first came out), not ones that are under test etc.

 

I think we should include logjam and maybe glassworks though as it's quite likely they'll be included in future ETF2L competitions. Perhaps intermodal as well since that's already appeared in the nations cup.

[Kenneth]

6s maps

 

Badlands

Granary

Process

Snakewater

Gullywash

Viaduct

Metalworks

Sunshine

Logjam

 

imo this is a good starting map list. Last three are iffy but I'd allow.

[TheMattgician]

So did we just forget about Gentleman Jon's rating system? Or even look at it? It's perfectly applicable here, could simply separate active players depending on how many there are and how many lobbies are up.

[MasterNoob]

Before we start this huge discussion about all the things in TF2C that need improvement, let me tell you this: as with most things, we will be implementing things in an "agile approach", meaning that we start with the basics. So the stuff that is not absolutely necessary should not be in there.

 

This proposed rating system should be fantastic, but will be evenly complicated. As stated before, the most important thing we’re trying to tackle with Advanced Lobbies is the mentality thing. Skill level will come after that.

 

However, we have seen that “team stacking” is also a huge problem, leading to 3-0 rolls. The solution to counter that, would be a mechanism where players would join a class rather than a team. Right after the ready up the system will shuffle players around to get a better balance. We recently have decided this should be part of Advanced Lobbies as well. It’s basically like tf2pickup, but the implementation of the shuffle can be implemented in various ways. The simplest would be a random shuffle, after that we would be using simple stats as Lobbies played, and ultimately the whole rating/ranking system could be implemented.

 

So let’s try to focus on cost effective functionality, so we get the most out of this on short term.

 

MN

[jayserp]

Just to comment a bit further on the above and add some context.

 

At a recent staff meeting, we decided that advanced lobbies is the way forward, but to implement it in one go and have a buggy system is not the way to approach this. As a result, we will look to build multiple components that eventually would comprise the advanced lobbies setup. Some of these components will be trialled on the site independently of the Advanced Lobbies concept.

 

This includes, but is not limited to:

1. Mumble detection (live)
2. Improved reliability (live)
3. Mumble reliability calculations (to be implemented after reviewing item 1)
4. Auto-ban and cooldown periods (to be implemented after reviewing item 2)
5. Randomise lobby check button when creating a lobby (in POC stage)
6. Notifications system (in development, needed for item 4)

By splitting the work up, we can hopefully get things built quicker and work out what works best before going live with Advanced Lobbies. The last thing we want to do is create a concept that has a bad reputation within days of being released.

[TheMattgician]

Fair enough, I was getting concerned because last discussion we had about the ranking was rather fruitless. The shuffling of players can be handled by the ranking, which by the way can be completely hidden. Also, if I recall correctly, Gentleman Jon already coded most of his ranking system.

[MasterNoob]

The shuffling of players can be handled by the ranking, which by the way can be completely hidden.

 

It will exactly be implemented like this, so under the hood rather than comparing dick sizes.

[R.E.M.]

If we end up going down the route of randomised lobbies then please do what TF2Pickup.net does and let medics choose one person to pair with.

[Timon]

Awesome!

[flip]

This sounds like it might be good. But it is going to make "casual lobbies" absolute trash, which will probably deter news users from playing? It's basically making some elite club that new players can't participate in. If people new to tf2center can only play on shitty, troll filled "casual lobbies" running trainsawlaser, they aren't going to enjoy tf2center and will leave.

[MasterNoob]

This sounds like it might be good. But it is going to make "casual lobbies" absolute trash, which will probably deter news users from playing? It's basically making some elite club that new players can't participate in. If people new to tf2center can only play on shitty, troll filled "casual lobbies" running trainsawlaser, they aren't going to enjoy tf2center and will leave.

 

I'm not sure if it will really be like that, but if so, I'm prepared to do what's necessary. The reality is that our community is already split up in "elite" and casual; mixing them up is equally worse. And since it will be very hard to get to this elite part, only truly motivated players will end up there, which is a good thing, considering the whole mentality thing from above...

[Mother Tereza]

This sounds like it might be good. But it is going to make "casual lobbies" absolute trash, which will probably deter news users from playing? It's basically making some elite club that new players can't participate in. If people new to tf2center can only play on shitty, troll filled "casual lobbies" running trainsawlaser, they aren't going to enjoy tf2center and will leave.

 

This is not the only concern. Another one is the longer filling time for advanced lobbies due of all these limitations and much smaller userbase. Very long filling time was the reason why people eventually abandoned mixes organisation on TF2C. There is a big chance that advanced lobbies will come to the same result. If the overall waiting time will be greater than maximum threshold acceptable for the players, even with many new features these lobbies will never be popular.

 

The probable solution is schedule or announced starting time for each advanced lobby. Each mix usually requires several hours to gather players. And there is always a starting time for it posted in a google spreadsheet. People know when they will be able to play, several hours is enough to gather required number of players, and as result everything somehow works. I think that the "time factor" is very important, when we are talking about advanced lobbies.

The reality is that our community is already split up in "elite" and casual; mixing them up is equally worse.

 

I think that you are very mistaken here. Mixing newbies and experienced players is the only chance for the newbies to become better and learn new tricks. This is the core idea of our slogan - "From public to competitive". Completely splitting up these two different audiences will lead TF2 community to the dead end.

[loop]

I can't wait for this. I do see one issue in fragmenting the already small TF2C population, however.

[flip]

Yeah, even now it sometimes takes way too long for lobbies to fill. Dividing the community into two separate types of lobbies will just make it worse.

[MasterNoob]

There are a lot of players who are happy to wait a bit longer on a quality game rather than hopping on the first casual Lobby to launch...

[The Once and Future King]

There are a lot of players who are happy to wait a bit longer on a quality game rather than hopping on the first casual Lobby to launch...

 

I agree, as it is I see very few people set hour or lobby restrictions on their lobbies.  This is because of the perception that they take longer to fill (even that is perpetuated by people thinking they take longer to fill and as a result they make that true.  They really don't have to take longer to fill if people would just join them.)

 

Even still there are a few people (myself included) who set requirements on most or all of their lobbies.  It usually does take longer to fill (though only because of the poor attitude of the users who think as mentioned above.) but it is usually worth it in having a full team in mumble and having a group of players who actually wanted a fun game with at least some competitiveness and are usually the people willing to wait for that lobby that will have a higher chance of being closely matched instead of joining whatever was going to fill fasted regardless of how much of a roll it is.

[Mother Tereza]

1. Nobody likes to wait. People are happy to play quality games, but this does not mean that they like to wait. There is definitely threshold for the player's patience. 1 mediocre game still better than nothing.

2. As I mentioned above, the problem with the waiting time is its vagueness - you have no idea, how long it will take to fill the "special" lobby. This vagueness produces players fluctuations, people come and leave if they lose their patience, as result players' disappointment grows and lobby requires more time to start. The mixes group has solved this problem by making schedule for every game. If you know the time and date for each game, you can plan your time and and do not depend on others.

3. So to solve vagueness issue, we just need to add scheduled starting time for each "advanced" lobby and make a strict rule and punishment for latecomers.