35 replies to this topic

[R.E.M.]

In the last 1-2 weeks I've been banned somewhere between 5-10 times from lobbies with:
 

• No reason given
• No warning
• No way of appealing/challenging it
• No way of defending myself

 
Today alone I've been banned from 3 lobbies.
 
The current system is so broken. In every single instance of me being banned I said nothing in the lobby chat (and I mean literally nothing in most cases), I always join mumble whether it's required or not, I have never been rude to anyone over the mumble to my knowledge (never had any complaints / ban requests posted against me either) and I try my best not to play badly, I'm not the best medic in the world by a long shot but I at least join mumble, com a lot and do my best. The people who I've made friends with in lobbies tell me that as center medics go I'm one of the better ones. My record on reliability and number of RQs is impeccable and I have 582 lobbies played to date since December 2013 when I first started playing.
 
So why am I getting kicked from lobbies? I honestly can't figure out why I'm actually getting banned from lobbies. There's no accountability, no process to appeal and so lobby leaders can just do whatever the hell they want and abuse the ban button endlessly. It's irritating to sit in a lobby for up to 10 mins waiting for it to fill only for me to randomly get removed from the lobby with not even an indication that I was banned from the lobby. The only way I know for a fact that I'm even being banned (as opposed to say the lobby closing) is by clicking on the lobby I was just banned from and not being able to join.
 
To be blunt this kind of stuff where ordinary rule abiding players get screwed over really pisses me off and as you admins are aware it was one of the many reasons I left my position as moderator because it's dumb and if you guys want TF2C to be the friendly and inclusive experience that you claim you want it to be then you will:
 

1. Include at least a message or pop-up box making it clear that you were banned from the lobby and that it didn't close for any other reason
2. Make it mandatory for lobby leaders to give a warning before kicking you or mandatory to give a valid reason for kicking you
3. Punish users who misuse the ban from lobby system

 
Lately the user experience on TF2C has been dreadful with stacked lobbies, people not joining mumble when it is a mumble required lobby and people just generally dicking around in lobbies and trolling chat. I know the devs are working on it but I've been patiently waiting along with the rest of the user base for these problems to be solved and they haven't. Many of the people I know who used to play TF2C have moved over to either pugs or TF2Pickup.net and I've been resisting this decision to move for many months because I really want this site to get better and to have a positive impact on the community. I did what I could for this site during my time as moderator but ultimately I do not feel like I can help it anymore.
 
My interest in this site is waning as is the interest of many other players of a variety of skill levels. I know I'm not the first and only staff member to leave and I think the problems go far beyond the site bugs and features. But you cannot expect your users to hang around for 5-0 rolls and an almost pub level of organisation in most teams if they're being banned for no reason to boot. I know I'm not the only one to have experienced this and I certainly won't be the last.
 
TL; DR: I still care greatly for this site so please fix the lobby ban feature by at least considering the 3 suggestions above.

Edited by R.E.M., 28 July 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Taddy]

I agree with the first one you listed, there should be a clear announcement about you being kicked.

 

I don't think players should need a reason to ban you from a lobby. The most I can think of is they either kicked you for a friend slot randomly or they simply don't like you because of how you speak in mumble or the things you've written on forums. Do you play on the name REM or something? Try using an alias with a different profile picture once.

 

I've found myself to kick people because I simply didn't like them nor did I want any chances of associating with them. This doesn't come off as a valid reason, but I think leaders should have that right reserved.

 

The most I've been told by admins for people not joining mumble when it's required is to try to report them out of the game....

I agree there is a lot of trolling on this site and 5-0 rolls, but I don't see what that has to do with the initial post.

 

To be blunt you came off as a very negative person to me in multiple ways and I'd probably randomly ban you as well from my games, but once again the notification of being kicked/banned would be great.

Edited by Taddy, 28 July 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[foungi]

i as well get banned for no apparent reason other than being well known fairly often. i'd support a system that shows you why you got banned. all in all the decrease in skill level and seriousness mainly comes from hlo players, but that's just a wild guess.

[The Once and Future King]

Hell, even if leaders only required to give a reason I wouldn't care if that reason is "I don't like you" as like Taddy said that seems like a valid reason.  I've not had many instances where I've been banned from a lobby but this past weekend I was banned from a lobby I hadn't even realized I was in and when I thought I was going to join it from the main page I couldn't because I was banned, I couldn't even find out who did it to make sure I don't let them play in the lobbies I create.  

 

At the same time I don't think banning someone because a friend wants a slot is a valid reason since that is why the reserved slots exist, just like banning someone because they have a low lobby count or low hours is not a valid reason.  In both those cases there are feature in place to both save a slot for a friend and to make sure that someone without the hours and lobby count you want cannot even join the slot and in that case if someone can't use the system properly they have no business making a lobby in the first place.

 

As a lobby leader I vary rarely ban people.  The reasons I do use the ban button are that the player is EU and trying to play NA, the player is spamming chat or just talking out of their ass in chat and I am tired of it, I have played with them before and they did not join mumble, or I have played with them in the past and I know they have a tendency to ragequit if they are not winning.  I even let people I don't like stay in my lobbies as long as I know they will get in mumble and they are not too much of an asshole that will rant about how bad everyone is when they get killed during the game, and in some cases I have figured out that the first experience with that person was just a bad one and they are not really that bad.  I'm not saying those 4 reasons are the only valid reasons to use the ban from lobby button, however there does seem to be (and I have heard from other users that seem to have more problems with this than I do) a lot of abuse of the ban button.

 

I also agree something needs to be done about the problem of people not joining mumble in mumble required lobbies.  If I join a mumble required lobby and there are 3 or 4 of us in mumble and only one of the combo classes then I might as well join a pub, those are the lobbies I usually ragequit before the game even starts.

[Waffle]

In my opinion it is there server they can do what they want. If its that big of a deal run your own lobbies.

[Neidii]

It's a little annoying, I'm getting banned regularly from lobbies because the enemy lobby leader thinks I'm too much of a threat, it's always the same people too. But hey, there's always other lobbies to play so I don't care, mostly I just think it's silly.

[Luop90]

A chat announcement about someone being kicked/banned would be useful. In fact, after I'm done writing this, I'm going to head over and make a thread about it in the suggestion forum.

The thing about the kick/ban tools are that they are there for a lobby leaders discretion. If they weren't allowed to use them, they wouldn't be there. I personally have a list of players who've I've had bad experiences with and it's an instant-ban upon joining the lobby. I know I'm not the only one who does this. If a leader isn't letting you play, choose another lobby. There's tons of them, and since you play medic, I can guarantee you'll find another one in seconds. Is it frustrating when it happens? Yes. But it's hardly something to go submit a ban request over.

On the mumble req, something needs to be done. In fact, part of the instant ban list I have is filled with players who I've known refuse to join mumble. They even say it in chat. Now the devs have something in the works for this; and according to MN, it's not if, but when. Dates weren't released, but it's in the works. Banning someone from TF2Center is not it though.

[Swagni]

 

1. Include at least a message or pop-up box making it clear that you were banned from the lobby and that it didn't close for any other reason
2. Make it mandatory for lobby leaders to give a warning before kicking you or mandatory to give a valid reason for kicking you
3. Punish users who misuse the ban from lobby system

 

 

First of all: I banned you because I don't like you. 

 

I agree on 1. 

 

I don't like 2. because lobby leaders should be able to decide who to play with and who not. I think lobby leaders should be free to remove whoever they want from THEIR lobby. But of course there should be a way to give a reason, but it should not be mandatory.

 

3. In my opinion there can't be misuse of the ban system because its the leaders decision who he removes from his lobby or who not. The only misuse I could see is, that he just bans everyone randomly from his lobby. In this case it would be hard to tell if he bans them for a reason or is just being annoying.

 

Conclusion: Improve the ban system (reason, ban lists, permanent bans from all lobbies the owner creates, notification for the users) but please do not add further rules for when and how to ban people. Lobby leaders should be able to decide who they want in and who not and should not be forced into complicated rules. 

Edited by wogi, 29 July 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[TheMattgician]

I don't really see why Lobby leaders should get much more right than other players. Bans should be reserved for disruptive behavior, which affects everyone in the lobby, not just the leader. Banning for your own benefit is not just egocentric on multiple levels, but also childish.

 

Also, you banned a player because you don't like him? Geez, grow up.

[Swagni]

Also, you banned a player because you don't like him? Geez, grow up.

 

Why do you get so personal about this? Really professional behavior for a moderator. As long as I have the chance to not play with players I don't like I will remove them. If you think this should not be done, make a rule about it. The creator of a lobby should have power over his lobby to a certain point. I am not saying they should have infinite power and do whatever they want. I just think that especially during the time where the game has not started he should be able to remove whoever he wants. Even if its masternoob himself who joins. (masternoob will permaban you for doing this because of his ego, but still!)

 

This is my opinion I am not saying that this is the best solution or that this is what you power hungry moderators want. It's already really annoying that it's against the rules to just remove players from the server who do not join mumble. If you want strict rules you need a PERFECT system to enforce them. Disruptive behaviors should deserve a ban from the whole website and not just a ban from the lobby. And there is enough annoying players on this site who maybe don't break the rules but who are annoying enough to not have them ever in my lobby.

Edited by wogi, 29 July 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Taddy]

I just doubt people are randomly being kicked for no reason. If that was the case that lobby leader would be known for doing that and their games would never fill. The only players I've banned were ones who say extreme things to me or if my friend decides they RANDOMLY want to play. I say randomly because I could make the lobby then ten minutes later a friend shows up. I do warn the player to get off the class slot before kicking them tho this rarely happens anyways. 

 

There's always a reason for kicking someone from a lobby. Attitudes on forums or anywhere. Maybe you play too well and they don't want to deal with a roll. Maybe your known to stack with friends. Maybe they just don't like you. As shallow as these reasons seem I believe the feature should stay and someone shouldn't be forced to associate in anyway with a player they don't like. A valid reason should not be needed. However, displaying that you've been banned really needs to be implemented as it causes a lot of confusion. 

 

There are other lobbies to play in and if it does get to the point where you outcast yourself you can use an alias or rent a server.

Edited by Taddy, 29 July 2014 - 03:29 PM.

[R.E.M.]

Some interesting comments here on both sides of the argument, I can see why people are concerned about more rules on what lobby leaders can do with the ban powers but I'm actually totally fine with people banning people if they don't like them even though it's not something I would do personally. But whatever happens we need a system which tells people when they're banned, why they're banned and at least has some oversight so people don't just randomly ban people from lobbies. We had a ban request ages ago on a guy forcing people to type stupid things in lobby chat and threatening to ban people from the lobby if they didn't comply.

 

 First of all: I banned you because I don't like you.

 

That's fine with me actually but I can't think why because you weren't with me in the mumble server in the lobby I played with you last. I said nothing to you in the chat during the game. I made a comment to Juno that I didn't like the way you rolled out on roamer because it's too fast for me to even buff you properly. I dunno if this is because I reported you for using admin powers that you weren't even supposed to have. I didn't actually do anything wrong in the game that would warrant a ban imo.

Edited by R.E.M., 29 July 2014 - 03:43 PM.

[The Once and Future King]

 or if my friend decides they RANDOMLY want to play. I say randomly because I could make the lobby then ten minutes later a friend shows up. I do warn the player to get off the class slot before kicking them tho this rarely happens anyways. 

 

That is kind of an assholish move.  Someone just sat in your lobby for 10 minutes ignoring open spots in other lobbies and you go and kick them because your friend randomly decides he wants to join.  This is probably one of the worst and most invalid reasons to kick/ban someone from a lobby.

[Taddy]

 

 or if my friend decides they RANDOMLY want to play. I say randomly because I could make the lobby then ten minutes later a friend shows up. I do warn the player to get off the class slot before kicking them tho this rarely happens anyways. 

 

That is kind of an assholish move.  Someone just sat in your lobby for 10 minutes ignoring open spots in other lobbies and you go and kick them because your friend randomly decides he wants to join.  This is probably one of the worst and most invalid reasons to kick/ban someone from a lobby.

 

 

I feel bad for five minutes then move on. Like I said it rarely happens and I do warn in advanced. My friends do come before random people when dealing with video games. I'm just giving examples as to why people may find themselves being randomly kicked. It's much better than leaving the slot locked for several minutes because someone may or may not show up. This causes the entire lobby to rage and get impatient. 

Edited by Taddy, 29 July 2014 - 05:31 PM.

[TheMattgician]

"Power hungry moderator"? Not sure how you got that..

 

Anyways, it seems appropriate for the leader to have to type a reason for the lobby ban, which would appear in chat. It leaves a 'paper trail', which can be useful, and should decrease senseless bans to some degree.

[flip]

I don't really see why Lobby leaders should get much more right than other players. Bans should be reserved for disruptive behavior, which affects everyone in the lobby, not just the leader. Banning for your own benefit is not just egocentric on multiple levels, but also childish.

 

Also, you banned a player because you don't like him? Geez, grow up.

there are a few people I know in the community that are just absolute trolls, and sit in mumble insulting people. I ban these people from lobbies I make. I personally don't see a problem giving lobby leaders ban powers. First off all, it's their lobby, made using either a server they pay for or spent the time getting from serveme.tf.  Second of all, there are some horrible people in the community that are well known for their harassment, and I would be pissed if I couldn't ban them from my lobbies.

[TheMattgician]

I'm not saying leaders shouldn't be able to ban at all, I'm saying the bans should be justified. Banning a player because he's trolling in Mumble makes absolute sense. Banning someone because you don't like them doesn't.

[flip]

well how do you determine whether it's justified? Honestly out of my 188 lobbies I've never been kicked so I don't know why people are having problems. It's not like leaders are kicking everyone without a reason, because then the lobby would never start....

[Mother Tereza]

Agree, this is an issue.

 

1. Include at least a message or pop-up box making it clear that you were banned from the lobby and that it didn't close for any other reason
2. Make it mandatory for lobby leaders to give a warning before kicking you or mandatory to give a valid reason for kicking you
3. Punish users who misuse the ban from lobby system

 

1. Definitely need to implement this among with the lobby chat system messages about kicked/banned players.

2. The reasons are always the same and everybody knows this: personal antipathy, "I want to play with my friend" reason, "I don't like your stats, you are noob". So I don't see a real advantages if lobby leaders will be forced to point out their reasons. They just will be skipping this.

3. This is the most confusing part. What is criteria to judge, was it fair ban or not? This is always a personal choice. I have no ideas how to deal with bans abuses. If you have, post it in suggestions.

[R.E.M.]

 

2. The reasons are always the same and everybody knows this: personal antipathy, "I want to play with my friend" reason, "I don't like your stats, you are noob". So I don't see a real advantages if lobby leaders will be forced to point out their reasons. They just will be skipping this.

 

It's to communicate to the banned user why they are banned. It's never obvious to me why I was banned so I can't imagine it would be obvious to someone else unless they're trolling. Plus we can design it so they can't skip it by having a dropdown box list or something that they have to fill out to ban someone.

 

 

3. This is the most confusing part. What is criteria to judge, was it fair ban or not? This is always a personal choice. I have no ideas how to deal with bans abuses. If you have, post it in suggestions.

 

Ok banning people because:

 

• You don't like them
• They were trolling around in previous lobbies
• They've broke the rules and were reported or had a ban request

et cetera is fine. I think the first one is a bit immature but whatever chances are I won't like them anyway.

 

Banning people for other stuff like politely disagreeing with the lobby leader or even the lobby leader banning people from the lobby for fun or the lolz or because someone wouldn't write something in chat (I've seen all of these btw) are not ok and should be dealt with via a create lobby ban in just the same way as rcon abuse would be treated. Also I don't like people banning people from the lobby so their friend can come into the lobby, that's what the kick function is for.

Edited by R.E.M., 06 August 2014 - 09:58 AM.