8 replies to this topic

[Foxyfluff]

I am here to reach out to the moderators and ask from some objective insight on rule 8.1. as I feel there are some serious loop holes in it. Furthermore I would like to gain a better understand of this rule so I may be able to respect it properly.

 

I will break down what is specified in the rules and pose the questions I have.

 

 

 

Table of contents

Rule Part 1

Rule Part 2

Rule Part 3

Rule Part 4

Reports

Conclusion

 

 

 

 

Part 1

 

Rule 8.1: Use of Lobby kick/ban tools

The kick/ban tools are for use at the Lobby leaders discretion only.

 

Right off the bat we have this interesting sentence as an introduction to the rule.

 

Discretion (noun)
The power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice.

The quality of being discreet, especially with reference to one's own actions or speech.

 

At ... discretion (idiom)

As one wishes, any time as one sees fit, at one's pleasure, at will, whenever one wishes, at any time...

 

Conclusion: This says the lobby leader has the power/right to decide what a valid reason and time for a kick/ban is.

Theoretically speaking you could stop reading right here and conclude that we cannot physically break this rule.

 

But wait. There's more.

 

 

 

 

Part 2

 

Rule 8.1: Use of Lobby kick/ban tools

Lobby leaders are encouraged to be good hosts, respect other players and use these tools sparingly. Any abuse of these tools will be met with a lengthy ban. Some examples of Abuse of these tools includes things such as kicking all players who join, kicking players as an act of ill will, kicking players because you 'forgot to reserve' a slot, etc...

 

In this part of the rule we learn that the use of the kick/ban tools is in fact not at your discretion at all. It was just a joke.

This block of text is a contradiction to what is previously stated.

 

In fact there are strict guidelines and threats of lenghty bans for not following them. Aside from being encouraged to use some common sense we are warned about abuse and given a few examples:

• Kicking all players who join (I agree, logical)
• Kicking players because you forgot to reserve a slot (I agree, logical)
• Kicking players as an act of ill will (Erm.. I'll get back to this in a second)

Suggestion I feel could be explicitely listed/added to these examples:

• Kicking players because you forgot to restrict a slot (or kicking players because they don't have enough experience)

 

 

 

 

Part 3

 

Rule 8.1: Use of Lobby kick/ban tools
Contrary to this, it is acceptable for Lobby leaders to kick those players whom are constantly griefing them, or people they associate with.

 

 

This is where it gets really interesting!

We are not allowed to kick people as an act of ill will.                                                                              

We are allowed to kick/ban people who are constantly griefing us, or people they associate with.

Arn't we always going to have some form of ill will (synonym: bitterness) when you kick/ban players that have been griefing you?

 

What exactly does griefing define in this context, anyway?

Gameplay related griefing? (Refusing to heal, stealing healthpacks, teleporters..)

Excessively provoking, insulting or otherwise harassing you vocally (chat, voice, mumble..)?

Does the above have to take place inside the TF2Center provided services/servers?

 

 

 

Part 4

 

In addition to abusing Lobby tools, excessively kicking/banning players is not allowed; as a general metric, indiscriminately kicking more than 5 players in one Lobby may be met with a ban.

 

Right after being reminded of the abuse, we are told we can indiscriminately (synonym: randomly) kick/ban up to 5 people without receiving a ban. This is a second complete contradiction.

 

 

 

 

The reports

 

The chat alone does not always give the complete story for a TF2Center admin to review a kick/ban tool usage as he only has the lobby chat log to work with.

How are we supposed to prove that we have a valid reason for kicking/banning somebody for "griefing" and avoid getting a CL ban for it?

Why do lobby leaders often receive a CL ban for banning one person while others, even though reported as well, get away with banning multiple people?

 

 

 

Conclusion

 

If one person that has actually been griefing or otherwise harassing you goes through the trouble of reporting you for banning them out of your lobby, you will still just about automatically be met with a CL ban for "abuse". Pls fix.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I am currently sitting out a 2 week CL ban for banning somebody I feel I had the right to ban. This is, however, not necessarily an appeal or unban request.

Disclaimer: Yes, I realize that a big part of this rule can be replaced by "be nice and have some common sense", yet we still require a proper understanding of the rules/law so we can respect them.

Edited by Foxyfluff, 28 May 2017 - 11:17 PM.

[Luop90]

If you're this much of a lawyer, you must love our privacy policy.

 

Part 1 - That line "at the lobby leader's discretion only" does not mean that a leader can do whatever they want. It's to prevent other lobby players from trying to force the leader to kick someone; e.g. saying "say yes if you want this player kicked."

 

Part 2 - Not a contradiction. A leader cannot do whatever they want. See response to part 1.

 

Part 3 - Griefing: The action of causing someone grief in a video game. 

 

Part 4 - The number 5 is arbitrary, admins can decide to ban if they determine the leader is abusing the tools, even if it is less than 5 kicks/bans.

 

"Conclusion" - Hardly. If this is the case, you can simply submit an unban. In each case where you've been banned for abusing these tools, you've never had a good reason. You should be glad your current ban is as short as it is, generally a 3rd offense is permanent...

[siouxsie]

On the basis of the definition of discretion - "The power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice." - the rule is saying the lobby leader must only use the available tools to kick/ban players when using on their own judgment. Discretion is what allows them to choose whether it is appropriate or not to kick/ban a user. Being given the freedom to use the tools does not absolve someone of any responsibility to follow the websites' rules in regards to who can be kicked/banned.

 

Doing something to someone "as an act of ill will" is not related to any illness in your personal relationship with them but rather the illness of the intent of your action. One synonym of "ill will" is "bitterness", but so too are "malice", "spitefulness", and "antagonism".

 

To answer your question "How are we supposed to prove that we have a valid reason for kicking/banning somebody for "griefing" and avoid getting a CL ban for it?" I would suggest users are meant to start by having a valid reason and working from there. An honest explanation as to why they used the kick/ban feature in good faith should go a long way towards rectifying the situation.

 

edit: I am a very slow writer and did not see the admin response before I posted this, it looks like I repeated the same post in different words :r

Edited by siouxsie, 29 May 2017 - 03:33 AM.

[Foxyfluff]

Part 1 - That line "at the lobby leader's discretion only" does not mean that a leader can do whatever they want. It's to prevent other lobby players from trying to force the leader to kick someone; e.g. saying "say yes if you want this player kicked."

 

I considered the possibility of interpreting that setence the way you suggested, but that's just one way to do it. I would argue my interpretation is equally logical.

I made this thread to asking for clarification when it comes to this rule; because a lot is left open for interpretation. That's the problem.

 

There is a significant batch of players who genuinely believe they can still kick/ban as they see fit, as long as they stay under the limit of five. More than often simply because they believe they are operating within the boundaries of the rules.

Often leading people to quote different parts of this rule in order to justify or contest kicks/bans.

 

 

 

The confusion regarding this rule becomes even more apparant in the report section:

 

Disclaimer: I am not contesting the admin's jugdements in any of the following linked threads. They acted correctly as far as I am concerned. I am merely pointing out there seems to a lot of room for interpretation and confusion.

 

 

Rejected report for tools usage abuse (random): https://forums.tf2ce...eam-0078602085/

Rejected because, even though random, here it's allowed.

 

Accepted report for tools usage abuse (random): https://forums.tf2ce...eam-0070865950/

Accepted because, even though random, here it's not allowed. I realize PROKY had previous offenses and this was clarified in the report, which caused the ban.

 

 

Rejected report for random tools usage (experience related): https://forums.tf2ce...6206/?hl=reason

Rejected even though the ban tool usage motivation ban was "low experience".

 

Accepted report for random tools (experience related): https://forums.tf2ce...+banned +reason

Accepted because the ban tool usage motivation ban was "high experience".

 

 

I understand that admins should have some room for interpretation when they handle any report, but I feel the rules for the lobby leaders should not be open for this much interpretation and confusion.

 

 

Part 2 - Not a contradiction. A leader cannot do whatever they want. See response to part 1.

See response to response to part 1.

 

 

"Conclusion" - Hardly. If this is the case, you can simply submit an unban. In each case where you've been banned for abusing these tools, you've never had a good reason. You should be glad your current ban is as short as it is, generally a 3rd offense is permanent...

I had past griefing related reasons for the tools usage CL bans. Even though not derivable from either those report threads you linked nor the banter in the lobby's chat logs you're able to inspect. Furthermore I genuinely believed I was operating within the boundaries of the rules. My latest ban as since been overturned. I thank the TF2Center staff for their understanding.

 

 Part 3 - Griefing: The action of causing someone grief in a video game.

The rules justify the usage of kicks/bans for griefing even though admins have no way of checking on every aspect of this broad definition. As I understand it admins have to work with the little information they get from the chat logs unless provided with more information personally.

 

 

 Part 4 - The number 5 is arbitrary, admins can decide to ban if they determine the leader is abusing the tools, even if it is less than 5 kicks/bans.

From the reader's perspective you could argue that the entire rule becomes arbitrary because of the "indiscriminately kicking more than 5 players in one Lobby may be met with a ban" line. Again, this leaves way too much open for interpretation.

Edited by Foxyfluff, 29 May 2017 - 10:37 AM.

[Jaros]

ill will

Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is?

[Mrbliss]

How about admins accept this rule needs rewriting and probably the other do to. Kicking/Banning players should be to stop people trolling, or harassing other players. Also I think that if you forget to reserve a slot, or more commonly have a friend ask for a slot, then you should be allowed to kcik the player in that slot as long as they havn't been waiting to long. For example kicking someone right as a lobby is readying up shouldn't be allowed but if you had just opened it up in the last 5 min's and kicked someone that should be fine.

 

Also rule doesn't go into gltiches as there are many on this site. The glitch where lobby readies but players don;t get the dialog and the leader hasto kick everyone to fix it. This could mean players lose their slot as someone else steal it as they are kicked or someone wrongly reports the leader due to not knowing why they where kicked (they have no idea they need to ready up).

 

The other gltich is the one where you can be sitting in a slot but for some reason someone else can also join the slot and effectivrly kick you out of it. the leader should be able to kick that player who stole the spot by accident or whatever. Again though that kicked player currently could report the leader and get them banned.

[Andrei]

Clarification?

 

Don't be a jerk, really. 

 

I'm pretty sure Rule 8.1 asks for Lobby Leaders to use common sense when Kicking other players.

 

There are so few situations when you should actually kick someone. The "Minimal requirements" for joining a lobby along with the reporting system help a lot with this. You could, for instance, kick someone who continously harasses other players if he refuses ceasing it even after being warned. But that's rarely the case...

[TieshaEquam]

i did do a lot of research on the subject but just wanted to ask around I have decided to buy the tools to try them out. I do think they will be worth it since I do many projects. I will post pictures when Im done. Probably gonna have the smith do the dovetail. Also to my above post fellers please take no offense I didnt mean it harshly if it sounds that way.

https://img.torrent-...y-5.php?img.jpg ;-)

[ChristyRerve]

Yeah WSBK is pretty irrelevant at this point. Its the Kawi show for now and the new rule is just weird. EEEEhh MotoGP starts soon