14 replies to this topic

[The Once and Future King]

I think the admin team needs to decide on a clarification of the rules  regarding whitelists and items that are not on them.

 

I have noticed some (at least one) of the devs banning a fair number of people lately for using weapons that are "not whitelisted".

 

I know TF2C has had some whitelist enforcement issues lately so some of these probably stem from that and some from servers that just flat out don't have a whitelist.  The problem is, how is the player in the game supposed to know what whitelist should be enforced?  Each league has it's own whitelist and when joining a lobby as a player I have no way of knowing weather the leader set up for UGC or ETF2L or one of the other options.  So now if there is no whitelist I'm not sure which weapons I can and cannot use without getting banned, aside from the obvious weapons that are banned in all leagues like the pomson.  Furthermore, I am only familiar with teh UGC whitelist as that is the league I play in so even if I did actually know which league they set it up for I wouldn't know what ETF2L doesn't allow that UGC does and might run a "banned" weapon that I think is okay.

 

In addition to this, the very act of banning these people implies that server operators are not free to modify their whitelists if they so choose.  I know of one server owner (who happens to be an admin) who bans phlog on UGC lobbies even though it is now a whitelisted weapon, should this really be allowed?  If a server owner can't allow weapons that leagues don't should they be able to ban weapons that leagues don't?  Maybe if they use a modified whitelist they should be required to mention an modifications in the lobby description.

 

My personal opinion is that it is the server owner should be able to modify the whitelist but maybe should have to mention any mods in the description of the lobby.  Players should not be punished for using weapons that a server's whitelist (or lack of whitelist) allow them to use in game unless server operators are also going to be punished for not having a whitelist or for modifying their whitelist.  But of course that is just my opinion, I'm sure others will think differently and really only the opinion of the people running the site who make the final decision really matters.

[Kenneth]

It's a two sided issue, server Operators must make sure the appropriate whitelist is on their server. However, of something happens to the whitelist, we would expect users to not go haywire and use whatever they want. This will be clarified in the rules shortly. The ban thread I think you are concerned about sparked a small discussion between a couple of mods.

[The Once and Future King]

It's a two sided issue, server Operators must make sure the appropriate whitelist is on their server. However, of something happens to the whitelist, we would expect users to not go haywire and use whatever they want. This will be clarified in the rules shortly. The ban thread I think you are concerned about sparked a small discussion between a couple of mods.

 

So then server operators are required to have an accurate white-list and not a modified white-list?  How are players supposed to know which league setup the server operator choose when they set it up? 

[The Once and Future King]

This should also be added to the rules, with a link to various whitelists since users of this site who are not in leagues are not going to automatically know which weapons they can and cannot use as you expect them to.

[Kent]

A few suggesions to help:

 

Have a link to the UGC, ETF2L, OZFortress configs and whitelists based on which is chosen on the Create Lobby form with a reminder to keep them up-to-date, including the date of the latest version.

 

Automatically select (allow changing) the correct config for either the visitor's region or the server's region? Or force the visitor to choose one themselves, instead of defaulting to ETF2L.

 

Display the chosen config in the lobby's information. Right now you're forced to assume NA=UGC, EU=ETF2L, OC=OZFortress.

 

If lobby leaders are allowed to run their own configs/whitelist, they should be required to state which changes are made or provide a link to the config/whitelist they're running.

[The Once and Future King]

If lobby leaders are allowed to run their own configs/whitelist, they should be required to state which changes are made or provide a link to the config/whitelist they're running.

 

Weather or not this is even allowed is what interests me the most as I know of at least one person's server which is used often for NA lobbies that has a modified whitelist, I also usually whitelist the high-5 taunt because high-5's are fun and that is a minor thing but if we are allowed to modify the whitelist on our own servers I might consider removing the ambassador from my server's whitelist.

Edited by The Once and Future King, 10 June 2014 - 10:25 PM.

[Kenneth]

The most important thing is that people get a consistent experience that provides practice in their chosen league. If a UGC lobby is put up, it should be consistent with UGC rules, just the same as for ozfortress lobbies, we would expect the ozfortress ruleset to be followed. 

[Mahmoud]

hey regarding whitelists, arent tf2c cfg a little outadated?

I think all flamethrowers are now allowed ... arent they ?

[The Once and Future King]

hey regarding whitelists, arent tf2c cfg a little outadated?

I think all flamethrowers are now allowed ... arent they ?

 

#1.  TF2C only enforces whitelists on the server, it does not make them.

#2.  It depends on the league and game made.

#3.  What does this have to do with this thread? (but hey I guess at least you are talking about whitelists, instead of talking about configs on a discussion about whitelists.)

I think the admin team needs to decide on a clarification of the rules  regarding whitelists and items that are not on them.

 

I have noticed some (at least one) of the devs banning a fair number of people lately for using weapons that are "not whitelisted".

 

I know TF2C has had some whitelist enforcement issues lately so some of these probably stem from that and some from servers that just flat out don't have a whitelist.  The problem is, how is the player in the game supposed to know what whitelist should be enforced?  Each league has it's own whitelist and when joining a lobby as a player I have no way of knowing weather the leader set up for UGC or ETF2L or one of the other options.  So now if there is no whitelist I'm not sure which weapons I can and cannot use without getting banned, aside from the obvious weapons that are banned in all leagues like the pomson.  Furthermore, I am only familiar with teh UGC whitelist as that is the league I play in so even if I did actually know which league they set it up for I wouldn't know what ETF2L doesn't allow that UGC does and might run a "banned" weapon that I think is okay.

 

In addition to this, the very act of banning these people implies that server operators are not free to modify their whitelists if they so choose.  I know of one server owner (who happens to be an admin) who bans phlog on UGC lobbies even though it is now a whitelisted weapon, should this really be allowed?  If a server owner can't allow weapons that leagues don't should they be able to ban weapons that leagues don't?  Maybe if they use a modified whitelist they should be required to mention an modifications in the lobby description.

 

My personal opinion is that it is the server owner should be able to modify the whitelist but maybe should have to mention any mods in the description of the lobby.  Players should not be punished for using weapons that a server's whitelist (or lack of whitelist) allow them to use in game unless server operators are also going to be punished for not having a whitelist or for modifying their whitelist.  But of course that is just my opinion, I'm sure others will think differently and really only the opinion of the people running the site who make the final decision really matters.

 

 

Since most of my questions didn't get answered (not sure if it's because of lack of actually reading the post or trying to make it look like answering while not actually giving clear answers.)  let me put them in a numbered form and maybe someone can answer each question.

 

1. Are server operators allowed to use a modified whitelist?
2. Are server operators even required to have a whitelist on their server?
3. How are players supposed to know which league type the lobby is supposed to be so they can follow the correct whitelist when it is not working?
4. Why should players be expected to have every whitelist for every league and every game type memorized?(in case the whitelist isn't enforced, of course they would still need to know the league which TF2C doesn't tell the players.)

Edited by The Once and Future King, 12 June 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[Luop90]

mp_tournament_restart in the configs fixes this entire problem. Since the configs are run before map change, instead of after, that's the only way to enforce it without a map change.

[fraac]

I don't play highlander so the only way I would know what's allowed is from the currently active whitelist.

 

"aside from the obvious weapons that are banned in all leagues like the pomson"

 

See, I wouldn't even know that, and I've played comp for ages, just not highlander. There's no way new players would know this stuff.

[TheMattgician]

The pomson is probably an exception in your reasoning, because no one in their right mind would allow the pomson for comp play.

But there is a point to be made.

[fraac]

I said it because it's true, mate. I didn't know the pomson was banned and I wouldn't have guessed. I don't play highlander.

[Foxy]

I'm taking this to the wider admin team, and will get back to you!

[Waffle]

We have rules on running custom whitelists now aswell as forcing servers to run it