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Offclassing in 6s



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#1 Phoenix801

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 09:30 AM

as I see it now the rules regarding offclassing are to make sure people play according to the meta which is 2 scouts 2 soldires a demo and a medic.

 

but what I don't see is why tf2center is re enforcing it, the meta exists because that's the best line up with the current class restrictions not because that's an agreement between teams. so following that logic if any other class is played and is doing better than his teamates why is that an offense that results in a ban?

the whole point of tf2center is to start competitive, which means trying to win. if someone is offclassing, doesn't do well and doesn't switch back to his original class it makes sense to ban him but as long as he is being useful banning him is ilogical.

 

the only reason why rules like that work in pug sites is because people generally are not useful if they offclass too much which results in his team losing.

 

I got reported by someone from the opposing team: https://forums.tf2ce...290675/?hl=dima

 

it would make sense if someone in my team complained about me not doing well and dragging the team down because of my offclassing but it didn't happen because as you see the enemy team complained because they couldn't deal with this offclasses. which basically means that they complain that they are not good enough to deal with something that is less useful.

 

it looks like not a lot of thought was put into these rules.



#2 Highvlass Heavy

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:14 PM

The reason we have the offclass rule is because we're trying to foster a competitive environment that mimics higher level competitive play. With the wide range of skill level found here it would be very easy for a high level player to play a less effective class and still do very well, but nothing related to 6v6 is learned from being beat by a pyro who is better than you. 


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#3 Phoenix801

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 08:55 AM

The reason we have the offclass rule is because we're trying to foster a competitive environment that mimics higher level competitive play. With the wide range of skill level found here it would be very easy for a high level player to play a less effective class and still do very well, but nothing related to 6v6 is learned from being beat by a pyro who is better than you. 

taking the meta as granted means that none of the new players realizes why it's there.

if pyro to mid works better than scout to mid and wins you the round that's what you are suppose to use.

it's a competitive envirement which means you need to do whatever it takes to win without cheating.

people need to establish the realization that offclassing is not the most effective way of playing by them selves, which means the only way it is wrong to offclass is when you are doing little to no contribution when offclassing, which is what makes it competitive.

people who underpreform are the ones who need to be punished as they are dragging down the people who try to learn and improve.

these rules basically lower the skill level of such an accessible site to a point where people can hop into tf2center from a pub (which is the slogan of tf2center) but makes it for a far too big of a skill range, tf2center should be for people who understand the concept of 6s and want to put it to use and practice it before they hop into a competitive league.

 

and so to conclude people should understand the reason why you are not suppose to offclass instead of bitching about it because the opponent makes it work, and so the reason is not because it makes it less fun but because it's poteintially less effective, you cannot claim that these site is competitive yet ban a part of the game which is not banned in any league which may be more useful than what you allow.



#4 Highvlass Heavy

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:32 PM

You make the assumption that the people who offclass are new players and just dont know better, when in reality most of the highest offenders are people who are fairly skilled at the game and just want to dick around in lobbies against less skilled players. 

 

Just because you, as a skilled player, can run any class and win against newer players doesn't mean it is the most "effective" way to play. You say players should learn naturally that offclasses are less effective, but then you go on to say that offclasses should be allowed because you can use them effectively. 

 

Can you not see the contradiction in that? You're teaching these players that offclasses are effective when in reality they aren't, you're just effective as a player with more skill than the other team.

 

Yes, you absolutely could go into your average lobby and play whatever class you wanted, and probably do well enough to win. Nothing can be learned from that except, that guy is better at highlander classes than we are at 6s classes. At least when you lose to people playing normal meta you can learn from how they play and try to get better. 

 

Think of it like this: What if a full team of Invite players joined the lobby on the other team, and all they played was a Medic, 2 snipers, a spy, a heavy, and a pyro. Because they're Invite and much better than you or your team, you get 5-0'd in 15 minutes. Their offclasses were clearly effective, they won. Was it fun? Probably not for the people who joined the lobby to play 6v6. Did you learn anything? Did you get better? Probably not considering that team composition wouldnt even come close to what you would find in a 6v6 league match. 


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#5 DARKANDY

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 12:05 AM

If whatever is the most effective would actually be the mindset on how to have rules, then we would have no whitelist, as all weapons would be allowed, because some currently banned are more effective at winning.

 

Simply think of the offclassing rule as a soft whitelist ban on offclasses.


Edited by DARKANDY, 01 June 2016 - 12:06 AM.

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#6 Phrenic

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 12:56 PM

Offclassing is an accepted part of 6s whether you'd like to accept it here or not, skilled players usually smash new players as just as brutally on their mains too. Offclassing is only really seen as a separate issue because there isn't enough teamwork and coordination in the majority of the lobbies on tf2center to counter it effectively, any half decent team in the league will be able to deal with a very good Sniper because they work together to do so - and the teams which tend to utilise and work around a Sniper do so to gain situational advantages, to enforce map control, to delay pushes, to drop certain players, and so on. 
 
Again, the only reason this is an issue on tf2center is because you'd like to cater to the newer players who become easily frustrated when they lose against something they have no collective experience in countering, when these players decide to step up to the league they'll have even less of a clue when they run into a team working around a Sniper because you're bubblewrapping them from the experience in claiming that all offclassing circumstances are identically ridiculous. Offclassing is far more accepted than you're proposing, removing ALL player freedom to do so just because it's difficult to counter at this level and partially because you don't really see or want to understand the team dynamics involved is not a good or holistic enough reason.

Edited by Phrenic, 01 June 2016 - 01:02 PM.


#7 Highvlass Heavy

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 05:57 PM

You're comment implies that you can't offclass at all on center. The rules just forbid perma-offclassing. If you wish to offclass situationally there is nothing that stops you from doing that.  







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